Cindy Lee Berryhillinterview |
Brad - Hiya!! How are you a doin? Cindy Lee - Good, though I'm eating dinner as we write and fightin' off a minor sniffle Brad - I am so excited to be talkin' to ya- Do you need to wait a couple of mins or are you good to start? Cindy Lee - I'm good too go Brad - Cool- You are a new mommy right. When did this happen? Cindy Lee - First off. let me apologize for me typos. Now as for the mommy thing, I found myself to be in the state of pregnancy Jan. 2001. Mine and Paul Williams son, Alexander Berryhill-Williams was born Oct. 16, 2001. I'm finding this chat space has a cutoff limit. Any suggestions. Brad - It does- we could go IM if you have it - I don't really chat much in rooms- so I don't know where to find em Cindy Lee - That's Ok, I'm not sure what IM is...therefore lets stick with this and I'll just keep submitting.. Brad - Ok- I am sorry for my lame chat room.... Cindy Lee - no prob Brad - ok Cindy Lee - whazz yer 1st question Brad - Ok- For those that don't know- (& should, including me to a certain extent) could you explain how you would wind up on an antifolk fansite. Cindy Lee - Well,..'sides the fact that I coined the term "Anti-folk", I s'pose I was also one of the musical founders back in the mid 80s. That is myself and about 8 others that didn't fit into the "real" NY folk scene. Brad - You were one of the three first "antifolk" artists that I discovered. I had heard that you coined the term, and I heard that Lach had. How was it coined? Cindy Lee - Well, Kirk Kelly Lach and I met the summer of 85 outside of Folk City. We really hit it off. I was just off the Greyhound Bus travellin round the country. After a few weeks or a month of hanging out we arranged a meeting with the 3 of us to talk about us outsiders and Lach had a little folk fest that he ran out of his place on the lower E side and he called it I think New Folk Fest or something and it was directly in retaliation against the estab. New York Folk Fest. So at that meeting I said New Folk(or whatever it was) was boring. Lets call it the Anti-Folk Fest(and I was thinking bout an La club I went to back home called the Antifolk Club and I always liked the sound of it. Lach wasn't so sure of this name but finally he came around and called his fest. Antifolk fest and all of us scraggly untamed acoustic types with a love of the Pistols, Buzzcocks and Woody Guthrie played for each other. Brad - Strange thing- I am going through some Billy Syndrome flyers and I found one for the 5th annual Antifest and it has your name on it!! Cindy Lee - Wow, that musta been in '90 or something. Billy rocks. Brad - It must be, I just thought it was weird. How long were you in NYC? Brad - Billy does indeed rock! Cindy Lee - I hung out off and on. I arrived June of '85 and stayed through September. But I was hooked and in love and kept coming back. I cried on my flight back t o SD and when I arrived I found my crappy guitar had a rod through it from airline baggage. I went back every other month and finally moved there for "good" end of '88 then moved out Nov. of '91..broken hearted Brad - So in 91 you moved to SD, right? what then? Cindy Lee - Well, I actually moved out to Taos, NM with fellow scenster Lynne Robinson. She and a young gal named Christine ran an Antifolk zine called XPOSURE. Lynne and I hightailed it for NM when the scene and city and peoples health started to crumble. I lived in Taos for about 6 months then after a dream I had where Brian Wilson of the beach boys was beckoning me back to So Cal I returned to make what some think is my best album(Garage Orchestra). Brad - First off you are giving me an anti-education so thank you for that. second- do you think Garage Orchestra is your best? Cindy Lee - Anti-ed indeed, ha ha. Well yes I think it's my best. Cindy Lee - by the way ...someone needs to write the book, the story of the little scene that could, but never would. Perhaps you could do this book. Brad - My wife is the writer- (you too!) I would need much more education to pull it off. How long have you been into Brian Wilson? And what other stuff are you into? Cindy Lee - I've been into Brian Wilson since my mom gave me her old BBoy records. And then I was all in secret about my love of his music. But ya know Billy Syn. and I had a way mutual love and admiration for the whacked out genius that is Brian Wilson. Billy Syndrome and I would hang out on the sidewalk in front of Folk City with his friend, TYDE Bowl and sing BBoy songs and Monkees laments. Brad - HAHAHAHAHA Billy is playing the fort this month. What other stuff are you into? Brad - By the way- I have to say that while Garage Orch. is great- Straight outta and living room 16 are my faves!!! Cindy Lee - Oh man, a lotta stuff. But I don't listen to much music really. I love Stereolab, old school like The Buzzcocks, Woody G. Patti Smith, Bob Dyl, Velvet Under, etc.. Wow, I'm glad you love them since mommie doesn't give them the attention the perhaps deserve. Brad - I remember listening to Straight outta when I was driving to make up with my then girlfriend, and we have been together ever since- married now!!! That is power girl!! Brad - By the way- when can we expect a new album from you? I am certain you have some songs that need to be out there. Cindy Lee - Ah shucks deflect. It's all there to be reaped from the eithers.......Anything else you wanna know bout the orig. scene? Brad - Sure who was on it- I don't know too much about it and I would LOVE to have more about it on my site. After all I did get into it awhile ago- through you, Kirk and Roger Cindy Lee - As for new stuff. Yeah, I've got tons. I'm not sure whats up for me right now. I've been doing some soul searchin' wondering if this is still my calling and stuff. Cindy Lee - Kirk, Roger, Lach, Billy, Myself were Core man, core members of the original thing. There were others though I don't remember all the names. I young guy, 17 that had a song about the flag called American Rag. And there was the Singing Communist who once pulled this great feux Pau while singing at Folk Citys open mic, with Phil Ochs sister running sound and he sang "Phil Ochs Body is a Lyin in the Grave." Terribly funny. Brad - What!? I may be sayin this cause I am greedy and it is not me but there are few people who it should be their calling more than you! Cindy Lee - Thanks for the encouragement. I had a dream recently that I was talking to a musical peer, Victoria Williams, and I said "This music and work and business is sooo hard" and she says " Maybe its not what you're supposed to be doing and I say " I'm praying about it"....so lets see what the ethers have in store for moi Brad - All right so the old scene- what was it characterized by? What was the attitude of it? Cindy Lee - Oh, it was FULL of attitude. The established clubs like Folk City and the other place around the corner, escaping my mind, HATED this attitude of ours. We were just scruffs and didn't sound like James Taylor...One booking guy I spoke with said that he wouldn't book any of us cuz of our attitudes. I mean we did funny things. Unorthodox stuff. Like make up dumb songs on the spot and have other members of our crew come up and act like it was an old timey folk singalong. But just dumb nonsense words. And then we'd laugh out loud. But who cared no one was in the joint but us and we thought we were pretty entertaining. Brad - What do you think about those days now? Cindy Lee - It was a blast I could hardly sleep a t night after a hang with these guys. Now I think it was great great fun!! We were by my account creating the coolest scene going. And it seems that the fire still burns. Brad - Have you heard any of the stuff coming out of there now? Cindy Lee - admittedly no...but I don't listen to much...Paleface came around the last year I was in NY(and Beck).... Brad - Paleface and Kirk Kelly NEED to be on my site- I am half embarrassed to call it AntifolkOnline and not have them on it. I get emails from people all over the world telling me that they are antifolk. Is that crazy? Cindy Lee - Yeah you gotta get them in there. They've got good stories too. I love Lach so don't get me wrong. But you gotta talk to other earlybirds, cuz L can have a selective memory. Brad - I have talked to Paleface- and I think he wants to be in- but he is hard to get in contact with and Kirk I cannot contact for some reason. Cindy Lee - Wow that is crazy. And to think that it was just a couple of us hanging out and calling ourselves this thing and now it grows and lives on like a Promethean monster. Cindy Lee - Doesn't Lach or Roger have an email for Kirk, I'll see if I can find one. Brad - I have emailed him from what Steve Espinola gave me, and through Mugsy Records- but I have not gotten a response. What kinda scene are you in out in Cali? Cindy Lee - I'm in the moms scene. Hanging at the beach with one year olds.....there's no scene to speak of here in SD. Mid to late '90s was a very very excellent scene I was in outta LA. The LA pop scene with me and my Gar. Orch, The Negro Problem, Cockeyed Ghost, The Wondermints, Baby Lemonade and others including Jon Brion. There was a yearly POPFEST too..but that's kinda gone. Tell me a little more about how Antifolk continues to thrive. What do you hear from the streets? Brad - It is tough to say- cause I Live in Charlotte NC, so I am a little outta the way, but... Cindy Lee - I'm gonna need to go the night. Gotta fussy baby in the other room. Maybe we can reconnect Thursday around 7pm? Or Tomorrow 7pm (pst) Brad - When I first heard of antifolk- I thought it was mostly fast guitars played loud and with attitude- I think that there is still an element of that, but now in some ways it is more indie Brad - Sure either day let me know Cindy Lee - Lets try for tomorrow night. Yeah the fast guitar thing was sort of a part of the origins, but not everyone did that. I didn't. I think it was always about attitude of doing things innovatively and new Brad - Cool- See ya then Cindy Lee - and with something of a rough edge. Like RnR on acoustic guitars. ---See ya Cindy Lee - I'm at tad early but I'm here.. Brad - Hello Cindy Lee - hey Brad - Hey- how you been Cindy Lee - good, though still trudging through the forest of sniffles. Brad - A little sick- Cindy Lee - Well, yes. But it's on its way out now. How you. Brad - I am ok- I am in DC and I had some chili so my tummy is a little rough Cindy Lee - ah yes, the DC chili experience....glad all is basically ok, now you alls are relatively safe out in those parts. Brad - true that- lots a peeps were a scared to pump gas Brad - Last time I was sayin what I thought antifolk was- Brad - Not that I claim to be any kinda authority or knowledge, but.. Brad - I think it is mainly people who think you can still be innovative with an acoustic guitar Cindy Lee - Can understand that. ...Ok Antifolk is now, how folks are understanding it to be right now... I am interested in its metamorphosis. I think that is still the original intention.. attitude and creativity with acoustic instruments. Brad - Yeah totally- although there are some electrics in the mix as well- but I would say still mostly acoustic Cindy Lee - That's what we origies had in mind at the time..Also, we were super influenced by the Beat Scene and kinda thought ourselves to be the musical stepchildren of Kerouac, Ginsberg...and others Brad - Washington squares? Cindy Lee - Yeah, well the Squares were friends. They had a relatively big record deal before most of us knew one another. I liked them though, they paved the way as did Phranc, Carmaig Deforest.. Cindy Lee - I have to admit . I was a tad nasty to them on my first CD , on one song I sorta used them as an example of fake-folk. Brad - I just saw the name Carmaig Deforest yesterday for the first time- don't know anything about him? though. Cindy Lee - Carmaig is GREAT. Plays a very hip ukulele. Great anti-ish songs. I saw him first back in '84 and thought he was cool. He opened for Ramones, Violent Femmes and stuff. Brad - Whatever works- right? Cindy Lee - I introduced him to Lach, Kirk and the scene when he came to NY fall of '85. And he's been playing the fort ever since....Ah yes WWorks is right. huh, I felt bad when they felt bad about it later on. Brad - I have Who's gunna on record and right now I don't have a player- that's why the pic is kinda crappy on my site- scanned in pieces Cindy Lee - I like it best on record, the cover that is....you can find it on CD on ebay and stuff, pretty cheap. Brad - does Carmaig play guitar too? Have you thought of any peeps I need on the site> I found the record on ebay? Cindy Lee - a little. But he mostly sticks to uke and that is his forte. Cindy Lee - Well. Enamel the Camel or Dixon is one of the first great weird, schizi-anti's Brad - I have heard on Enamel- No contact info that I know of though- and Dixon I have never heard of Brad - I always miss out- I am trying to fix that though Cindy Lee - They're one and the same. Lach can fill you in more. I would say Beck...but he's got a zillion sites already. But he was there.. Brad - The trouble with that one is that I have always asked for permission and He is hard for me to get a hold of Cindy Lee - Yeah, but why do you need permission... Brad - Well- I didn't have Brenda Kahns for awhile, but she was on the site- I just feel better if I have it Cindy Lee - As for Brenda she's a good one to interview about the real early days. She came into the scene as a fan, a NYU journalist and poet that started dating Roger and we met her Winter of '96. She didn't play music until a year or two later. I think Roger taught her guitar. Brad - See I am just fascinated by this early stories and such- which fort do you think was the best? Cindy Lee - They were all great. Sophies was where it really started to take off and peeps outside our little scene of friends maybe 15 all in all, started to get turned onto the antifolk thing. Then sophies closed, it was next door to what became sidewalks so funny that much later that became its true home. I liked Sophies cuz it was quieter. Chameleon was so loud, a loud pickup bar. Cindy Lee - One thing I want to muse over for a minute is the thought of the original spark that became Antifolk. I tend to think that things that are meant to be are here hanging in the air for all to "see". Some of us pick up on it and it resonates and we make it manifest. Before I met Lach Kirk, Roger and Billy and the few others I had this idea that punk and folk could work together and wrote songs around this concept. Much of the WGSTW songs. I'd been in punk bands so it was natural to tell their stories. Like I said before on the west coast Phranc and Carmaig and others like Beef Sisters and some of the folks that played a place in LA called Lhasa club had some of this idea too. But it didn't seem to coalesce into a "THing"er scene until the day Lach, Kirk, Clb met in front of Folk City. Then we came up with the name and though each of us had a piece of the puzzle it didn't become itself until we shared our ideas and started hanging out and supporting each others music and knowing we were this cool scene. Brad - Who was the first to get signed out of that original group? Cindy Lee - I was, to Rhino Records. My Rhino deal was in the works from Nov. '85 but didn't get off the ground til late '97. Brad - 97 or 87? Cindy Lee - oops yes 87. Thing was I was fresh out of a job managing a recording studio in SD so I already had professional sounding tapes. Kind of a leg up. Brad - The damn I wish recording studio? How did you getting signed change the dynamics of antifolk in anyway if any? Cindy Lee - Well, I think me getting signed and the Squares getting a record out upped the ante for the Anti scene. Everyone started thinking more music bizy, though still underground. Kirk and Roger got signed to SST a year later and off we went... Cindy Lee - oh yeah it was the damn recording studio and the owners were the blokes in that 2nd verse of High Jump. Brad - High Jump!!! great song! Cindy Lee - thanks. Brad - welcome - Tell me a short story- anything you want Cindy Lee - Well, I was just thinking about this time in 1990 at the NY Music Fest.(I think its nonexistent now) and there was a panel called What is Antifolk and is it relevant. and Lach and I and Roger were on this panel along with Shawn Colvin and her Song A+R guy, it was weird. She was saying how she wanted to do everything right cuz this was her big break, and that was true her record did well and she became popular and we antifolksters were upholding our view of art and attitude and we wont bend over for no fucking wanker kinda thing and ...well here we are now obscure cult heroes, eh. And where is she may I ask(probably in her nice paid for home). Cindy Lee - Song means SONY Brad - Is that the panel that is on Roger's lefty bootleggs? Cindy Lee - huh, I don't know bout that. Is it a reference in a song? Brad - No- at the end of the tape there is what appears to be a panel talking to a journalist who is saying that she drove up from Jersey and that antifolk wasn't relevant Cindy Lee - Speaking of good Anti stories you've got to ask Lynne about the Dylan vs. Dillon story. Its hilarious and she knows it well.. re: the panel, well it could be from that panel...seems like antifolk has shown itself to be more relevant then any of us thought. Brad - Who gotta send me Lynne's email again- I can't remember if I emailed her or not Brad - Does anyone on the west coast know of antifolk? Cindy Lee- OK I'll send you another. Here's something else of interest. An underground comic book artist, David Chelsea, wrote a whole comic book about the scene circa 1989. With characters like Smirk Smiley, Candy Lou(me), Lunch, Puffy Prawn(Brenda) etc. You might find it on ebay, I think its long out of print. Brad - That sounds crazy!! Cindy Lee - Yeah, its pretty funny and typical of that antifolk time. Has me and Smirk beating each other up and lots of jealousy between friends and stuff. Brad - Was it dead on? Brad - Was there lots of jealousy between friends? Cindy Lee - Pretty well Id say. In fact I don't know how the guy knew as much as he did. Me thinks Lach talked. Cindy Lee - Well everyone wanted to get their stuff out and be recognized for how great they were. WE all felt that way to some extent. I had the other side to deal with. In that I had this record deal with an indie, Rhino and lots of people thought I'd made it. But it was never easy. And then you'd get some one asking you in a friendly way hows your business, how many records are you selling. And often implying that maybe I could help them. But I was a little squirt on a loud roaring Indie, known for selling old Monkees records. Brad - Tell me about your newest songs Cindy Lee - I've got lots of new songs. Since the last studio album I've been writing songs at the piano, so there's that and they sound great I think. I really wanna record "Look At That Grin" properly. Several songs are sci-fi based. Like Victorville Beach and Follow The Sun, The New Ice Age, and Antarctica. I'm not saying I wont put out another album, there'll be more. I'm just not gonna sweat the biz stuff this time. I wrote a song this year called Plenty Enough that is a crowd favorite. And it touts my philosophy that what ever we got a crappy guitar or marginal voice er whatever it's enough to do the job. Cindy Lee - I'm gonna have to sign off baby needs some mommie time, and bedtime soon. Cindy Lee - hello Brad- Hey- how are you tonight? Cindy Lee - good. I had a wonderful show last night, even with the cold, it really lifted my spirits. So I feel tired now, but real good. Brad- Good- I just wanted to finish things up here by seeing if you had any questions for me then doing a fast five- is there anything you wanna hit first Cindy Lee - I'm interested in how you came to antifolk, first off. Then a question regarding the musicians that you interview that call themselves AF. How did many of them come to call themselves this? After all the original scene was only witnessed by a few. Brad- I got into antifolk before the web was what it is to me now- I saw something in a folk newsgroup saying something to the effect if you like Wally Pleasant check out Roger Manning, Kirk Kelly and yourself- I was in Atlanta later at a Jonathan Richman show and saw- Roger Manning & the soho valley boys on record for $2 so I got it and the rest is history. As forthe artists I believe that most call themselves that after playing the antihoots and such in NYC. There are of course other antifolk scenes in Philly, Baltimore and other cities I am sure. Others I think heard of the scene and identified what they are trying to accomplish musically with antifolk. For example I got an email from a guy in Korea today that says something to the effect that I am an antifolk artist here in Korea that admires the work done in the New York Scene and would like to be apart of the website. Cindy Lee - wow a guy in Korea, incredible. The long arm of the anti.. Brad- That is what I thought. Cindy Lee - It's fascinating to see how widespread it has become. I mean it was begun as a small group of outcasts that decided to be OK about being so different. Brad- I was talking to Steve Espinola a month or so ago and he was telling me that was what is about- "being ok with being different" Cindy Lee - I think whats also interesting to me is that many of these artists or fans have probably not heard the music of some of the original anti's. And yet they use the label based on maybe playing a hootnit Cindy Lee - I dont have a judgement at all about this. Its just fascinating to see the growth of the creature and how did it become so. Cindy Lee - Who is Steve Espinola, maybe i need a memory refreher. Brad- I am not too sure as i sit from a comfortable distance, but I want the old guard to be known in the scene. Billy Syndrome is playing the fort for the first time in years soon. Roger played a couple of months ago there- I wanted a lot of peeps to go and see em. Brad- Steve Espinola is a piano/keyboard player- great guy. He has been involved at least since mid 90s i think Cindy Lee - Huh, maybe I havent met him, I dont know. I go out there every few years or so and meet the guys that hang with some of the old core. Like that guy that ran a zine a few years back. Brad- JOn Berger? Cindy Lee - yes Brad- I got one of those Zines when i went to NYC in 2000 Brad- i met him at a Hamell on Trial show Cindy Lee - He interviewed me at some point. Im not sure if I got a copy. Wonder if he's still doing that. Brad- No- he is doing other things now- he performs and has a band Brad- You should read his bio on my site- it is interesting Cindy Lee - Hamell is a good fellow. Weve crossed paths. He's embodys what seems most obvious about AF, nothing against H, I mean that sort of loud thrashing guitar. I thought he was taking what Roger started and made it maybe a little more palatable. Brad- He mentions Roger in his "quintessential" song Cindy Lee - You asked me the other day if AF exists out here in some form....not as far as I have seen. In 99 Roger Lach and I did a show here in SD at the punk/alt rock club the Casbah and it was a turkey. I mean no one was there. I do a whole lot better here without the frame of Antifolk. No one knows or has any idea about it. There was an acoustic scene here in the 90s and it pretty much revolved around Jewel and some other more middle of the road acoutic types. And though they are friedns I never felt aligned with them artistically. Brad- You know- Steve Poltz was in DC the other night while we were talkin' Cindy Lee - You know him? He's a friend, and pretty much the center of what was that SD 90s scene. Brad- I know of him- i don't know him Brad- rugburns Cindy Lee - Brad, what will become of our chat here. Are you gonna sift out the better stuff and knit it into a condensed interview or the whole thing? Do you need a new photo, I might be able to send something. Brad- I usually put up the whole thing I have taken the liberty to correct some spelling errors. I can use a new photo if you want or the one that i have got. Brad- I spell the wrong everytime Cindy Lee - We'll try to send along something new by email. Any last burning questions? Brad- You wanna do fast 5 and call it done? Cindy Lee - What is fast 5? Brad- I will ask 5 stupid questions fast like - for simple answers Cindy Lee - ok Brad- What was the best night in your life? Cindy Lee- I'm not a "best of" type person. If pressed to answer I'd say NOW, cuz this moment is the only one that exists. Its's the burning side of the candle. And I like to remember how fun it is to be here. Brad- What is your favorite breakfast? Cindy Lee- Uh, maybe Eggs Benedict. Brad- What advice would you give to new antifolk artists? Cindy Lee- Wear yer AF with pride. Don't be afraid to do things your own way--rules are made to be broken. Don't let the label Antifolk confine you. Make it up as it comes to you. Brad- How has being a mommie changed your music? Cindy Lee- I don't really see that it has. Some of my friends say I'm "more solid" whatever that means. Brad- Tell me a secret. Cindy Lee- My secret is that I hate secrets. If Im cheatin' on you you're gonna know about it. Brad- Thank you so much for doing this. It has truely been a great great pleasure as well as tons o fun for me. Cindy Lee- Fun for me too. Would you mind writing an email to my webguy NIgel at The Tearaway Page and set up a link to your site so that All May See. Thanks... Brad- No prob- will do. Cindy Lee- Afterthoughts: When I first met Kirk and Lach it was like fireworks. Like falling in love with both of them, or falling in love with the comingled vision of music words and thing that was to be. The feeling was palpable, like something important was taking place. It's no surprise to me in a way, that what came of our association has continued on in this stepchild Antifolk...it was that powerful a meeting. |
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